Driving standards last night

[scotty]

Well after last night i'm starting to see a little picture emerging of drivers of certain ability unable to set a car up to run on rubber tyres in our hall. Please don't take this as a mark against any of you but the simple fact of the matter is certain individuals are struggling with the rubber tyres. I think we as a club should look at letting these individuals go back to running Foams untill they feel ready to go onto rubbers. Before anyone jumps in and says that they'll get better with time, yes correct but we need to at the minute be making sure that they are enjoying their racing and not feeling down before a wheel has been turned, after all enjoyment is the main thing with the racing. Some of the cars look like they're on ice. With foams you get away with a car that isn't necessarily correctly set up as these tyres give awesome grip regardless. A lot of the bad driving lately has been because (in my opinion) people are struggling with rubbers. I'll try to speak to some of these drivers to offer advice with the rubbers, but feel to get these drivers enjoying themselves again we should look at the foams again.
Spoke to other drivers last night who agreed with me

[HPI Pro4]

13.5turn motor with current gen ESC are too fast, combined with around 10 drivers all fighting for 6 A final places, i would say thats a big cause for the standard of driving.
The tryes are fine if there prep'd right, but some people might not be doing that, wiping off excess additive etc.

17.5t is a good option imo. Its alot nearer to 19t brushed than 13.5t BL is.

[k3rm1tt]

Unless of course the club decides to impose a restriction on certain motors for inexperienced drivers i.e 27t brushed for the first one or two heats. This would also help to keep costs down slightly for newer members.

I think it would be a greater benefit to those who are inexperienced for the top drivers at the club to help get others cars setup, a bit like a buddy system so that they go straight and don't spin out. Dunno if it would actually work though IMO cos it depends on the individual's ability to drive in the first place.

[Alex Lindsay]

I feel that some drivers would get on better with a lower spec motor. Remember that it 13.5 is the lowest number you can run in the 13.5 class. There is nothing stopping driver using 17.5's or even 27 turn or indeed the silver can motor.

I have said on here before, racing is not initially about going fast, its about getting the same lines on every lap and going a lap (to start off with) without crashing or hitting the barriers. Another thing to good driving is watching waht is going on around yourself, reading the road you are on, not just around your car, but 2 - 3 meters in front of it and see if there is an accident about to happen and then trying your best to avoid it. However, that cannot be done at the speeds even the 13.5 cars are travelling at!.

At the AGM, when we made the racing rules, who would have thought, only 5 months ago that brushless would have advanced so much in such a short time. We need to rethink our racing practices and slow that cars down - THEY ARE JUST TOO FAST. And in my opinion, the rubber tyres (any tyres for that matter) can't cope with the speeds and performance that is avaiable from them. A nice 20T brushless would be nice to learn about driving. (Don't even know if you could get that spec.

[scotty]

Totally agree with everything that you've said Alex. I wanted 17.5 in at the AGM and it didn't happen. A car on foams is easier for a novice or a member who isn't comfortable running rubbers to drive, fact is they give off far more grip. Slowing the cars down is a necessity you are correct but the hardest thing is getting them to go for it untill it's implemented if implemented at all.
Something has to be done and sooner rather than later.
Cheers

[bigchris]

i can loan a 17.5 motor to you scott for evaluation if you like , i've got a spare , matt also has a 21.5 as well for evaluation but i cant speak for him loaning it out

[orinoco]

In my opinion, we cant impose a motor limit on people who are already racing. This would inccur a substantial cost to whoever it would concern. It would also alienate them too. Fine for newcomers who havent bought any gear yet, a 17.5t motor limit would be a good idea, lets start that as from now, but we cannot retrospectively implement it. However a return to foam tyres for those who prefer them could be allowed, as it is up to the individuals to choose whether or not they want to buy them or not, and i think they probably would if they enjoyed the racing more using them. This would not really affect the top heats, as i would imagine that everyone in those heats would prefer using rubber, as that is what is used in the external events and should be used at that level in our club.
Just my thoughts.

[mike tr]

Members have been harping on about this issue since we joined the club (2 years plus) I personally don’t think the issue has worsened since the switch to rubber, or maybe it has but I honestly believe switching back to foam is not going to make the problem go away.

The cars are way to fast for some of the driver’s capabilities. Slowing them down is something we need to do but I don’t think forcing members to buy new equipment is out of the question; for sure we would loose members.

Limiting the gear ratio and ESC setting could be a step in the rite direction but we need to help the inexperience drivers to cope with the set up and improve standards.

My two pennies worth.

Regards,

Michael.

[David McKeown]

I don't think the problem is the tyres, I think it was the change of track and the speed of the cars.

I think the only way to improve the standard would be slower motors.

[scotty]

Slowing the cars down is a priority yes but after we do this those members that are struggling to get a hang of the rubber tyres are still going to be struggling with them. We can look to help these members once we've decided what we're gonna do.
Scotty.......

[niall_cochran]

Scotty what heats do you think are having problems? 1-2 or 3-4 or maybe all the lower heats?

[k3rm1tt]

I don't think that creating a set of rules will be beneficial for everybody becasue there are two problems i.e. some cars being too fast and the driver cannot control or the car is not setup properly in the first place.
Would it not be better to identify who is having problems and identify what those are first and then decide on a course of action to suit the individual and their equipment ad/or money at their disposal.

[KC]

I watched the C,D & E finals last friday and they were like a demolition derby.
The speed of the cars wasnt the issue.
Not one car in any of those finals I saw looked anywhere near setup correctly.
Racing on rubber tyres requires some knowledge on car setup.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of our members dont have that knowledge yet.
Its still a new class to many of us and it will take time to master both driving the cars well on these tyres and setting them up.
I personally have been struggling too but I feel I am making progress (slowly)
I wasnt 100% behind the rubber tyres at the AGM and my view hasnt changed now.
Hopefully the saying "you have to go backwards before you can go forwards" is true.
If not, then its going to be a long season!

[niall_cochran]

I don't think that creating a set of rules will be beneficial for everybody becasue there are two problems i.e. some cars being too fast and the driver cannot control or the car is not setup properly in the first place.
Would it not be better to identify who is having problems and identify what those are first and then decide on a course of action to suit the individual and their equipment ad/or money at their disposal.

I would say the same. I would say speed isn’t the problem in the lower heats such as 1-2, watching them go round they are slow, and some do run 27t brushed motors. The issue here is more setup and general skill level. Also some equipment issues such as having a really slow servo, reversing speedo's. I see it all the time when marshalling. The driver makes an error, tries to reverse but the delay is so long they try to go forward again. it would be better for them to be marshalled. I personally have never used one and when I started I had a 19t for the first meeting. don’t think it did me any harm.
Since the club might be removing the wood championship, how about when the wood was going to be run, the top heats don’t run and we help the people with the problems? and since we aren’t running maybe it would mean they can get 4 quals and 1 final more track time, which they need.
A possible calendar reshuffle could be done so this is every 4th week not every 7th.

[mike tr]

Agree with Niall, every forth week would be a good idea. We can use this as a set up and training session for the inexperienced drivers. All we need is for the more experienced drivers to give their time to help the others.

[k3rm1tt]

How about getting a new grippy carpet like DDRCC has? Foams won't be an issue then.

[scotty]

As stated previously it's not all about grip. Their cars are too fast and the drivers in the lower heats cannot set a car up for the rubber tyres at the moment. Their racing enjoyment from their point of view is gradually getting less enjoyable as the weeks are going on. It won't surprise me if we start losing certain members shortly because of this situation. If we help these members get a handle of the rubbers there will still be some who just don't like them Full Stop. I'd rather we give the members the choice of what tyre to run each week whilst stll pushing them to at least give the rubbers a chance, and we could do this as we're helping them every 4 weeks. I'm personally enjoying the challenge of the rubber tyres at the present moment.
The club's all about the members as they're what keep us going through the year and we need to try and keep as many happy and enjoying themselves as possible. I really don't think giving them a choice of which tyre to use is a hardship to us as a club to be fair.
Scotty....

[Colin Rose]

Thought as a new member I would post my thoughts.
Having returned to a bit of Friday night fun after a 14 year break I am amazed at how things have progressed and the level to which things have risen! The speeds are well up and I'm not used to carpet having previously raced on wood. The only thing that really mattered on wood was a new set of minipins, the car setup didn't seem that important, perhaps because the speeds weren't as high.

With the above in mind I would really welcome a chance for some practise laps, being able to alter the car setup and try different things out without the pressure of achieving results. I also find myself wanting to ask some of the better guys for a bit of help but find that they look too busy on a Friday night setting up and changing their cars. They are there after all to race and compete in the club championship!

Hope this has been of some help. Colin.

[Alex Lindsay]

Hi Colin

Thanks for the valuable input. I am going to look at the calendar to see what can be done with regards practice.

Alex

[Colin Rose]

No problems Alex I really think a few of us could do with some set up time AND advice.:-D

Maybe some of the clubs experts should take our cars for a lap or 2 and see what we have to put up with. :mrgreen:

[niall_cochran]

How about getting a new grippy carpet like DDRCC has? Foams won't be an issue then.

the carpet is no longer the problem, no point spending loads of money when we cant sell the old stuff.

[KC]

Maybe some of the clubs experts should take our cars for a lap or 2 and see what we have to put up with. :mrgreen:


Sadly Colin, at this point in time the club has no experts.
The A final is pretty dire most weeks too.
However if you would like me to pass on what I have learned so far then thats not a problem. I dont claim to know it all but Im sure I can give you a few tips that might help.

[Colin Rose]

The A final boys look quick enough to me and I'm sure that a few members could do with some help getting their cars dialled in, if they were prepared to spend some time with us, but I think this has to be done on a non race evening.

[HPI Pro4]

I still dont know if Scott is talking about lower or higher heats. But it seems to be focused a bit more at lower heats now, I dont see a problem here other than inexperienced drivers, that only changes with time, we cant force people into better drivers no matter how much setup tips you give someone. It wasnt long ago i was wedging my HPI rally under lunchhall tables lol :P As has been said, they mostly run slower motors anyway and alot run foams. People get better in there own time, there is plenty of people at falkirk who are helpful and give alot of information about RC on any night.
I think before we start setting up or having practice nights for new drivers, we need to look at the top heats and how many mistakes and bad driving is happening there. We are all making alot of mistakes, my new shells wrecked already lol. I would like to try a 17.5t at the next practice night, to see how it runs at falkirk.

[scotty]

All heats, but more so heats 3 and 4 or 3, 4, and 5 depending on the numbers.

[Alex Lindsay]

Attached is an amended calender.

What does everyone think? We have two weeks before time will overtake events to deicide on what action, if any, to take.

please post on here your thoughts on the attached.

Alex

[HPI Pro4]

Practice + Racing sounds really good to me. Good stuff.
All of these nights are Carpet?

[scotty]

Alex i'm happy with what you've proposed m8 and certainly think it's a good idea.
Scotty

[KC]

Great idea.

[orinoco]

What he ^ said.

[Colin Rose]

Think it's great and will do a lot of people some good!

[scotty]

Well i just wanted to say that most drivers tried to drive a bit better last night.When these set up nights come around we should be able to help the members who are struggling the most with set ups and so on.
Scotty

[KC]

Sorry Scott but it was as bad as ever last night.
I watched most of the finals again and same old story, carnage.
I cant remember the last time I actually finished an A final without being punted.